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Honest Argument: Abramoff scandal is a Republican scandal
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Abramoff scandal is a Republican scandal

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Abramoff scandal is a Republican scandal  Abramoff scandal is a Republican scandal
       Abramoff donated no money to Democrats  Abramoff donated no money to Democrats
              Abramoff's clients and lobbyists donated to Democrats  Abramoff's clients and lobbyists donated to Democrats
                     Congressional Democrats have little to no legislative influence  Congressional Democrats have little to no legislative influence
                     Donations to Democrats decreased under Abramoff  Donations to Democrats decreased under Abramoff
                     Donations by themselves are not illegal, nor necessarily unethical  Donations by themselves are not illegal, nor necessarily unethical
       Abramoff central to 'K Street Project'  Abramoff central to 'K Street Project'
       Donations pervasive throughout Republican establishment  Donations pervasive throughout Republican establishment
       Many conservatives admit it's a Republican scandal  Many conservatives admit it's a Republican scandal
       All convictions are Republicans  All convictions are Republicans
       Reports of contacts with "six to eight seriously corrupt Democratic senators"  Reports of contacts with "six to eight seriously corrupt Democratic senators"
              Little evidence of such in documents released over the past two years  Little evidence of such in documents released over the past two years
              Former colleagues from the Greenberg Traurig lobby firm challenge this  Former colleagues from the Greenberg Traurig lobby firm challenge this
              If true, it would have come out before the election  If true, it would have come out before the election

Comments:




So many reasons to kick them out...

I hope you agree.

Comment by: timcgill At: 2006-11-03 00:35:01



Elections are only

three days away

Comment by: Ulysses Berman At: 2006-11-03 15:21:47



Donations aren't illegal

Donations - within legal boundaries - aren't themselves illegal or unethical unless they're made in exchange for something of value

Comment by: coolgeek At: 2006-11-16 20:17:20



Re: node: Abramoff scandal is a Republican scandal

I disagree.

The Abramoff scandal is a snapshot of the problem with PACs and electoral financing in our system. This is a latent scandal for the party in power. It rose to new levels of outrage with Abramoff and his well crafted racket of stealing from from both sides of the interest or issue in question.

My own experience in seeking PAC and corporate donations is that it is a process open to the corruption of the individual seeking the funds and of the funding entity. It is not an innocent or guileless transaction. There is never an innocent way of saying "Well, maybe." after receiving the funds.

So. By my own experience and reasoning, I must assert that Abramoff et. al. are systemic aberrations of a less than perfect method of funding the political process.

Comment by: Lantern Bearer At: 2006-11-18 12:04:04



Re: node: Congressional Democrats have little to no legislative

I must disagree.

There is always a little something flowing to the elected representatives of the party out of power, even from those interests that are in diametrical opposition to that party's core values.

A legislator's value to any interest is over the long term. It is the best interest of interest funding source to smooth-the-way.

I would recommend a through examination of the public record as posted on http://www.fundrace.org/... or http://www.opensecrets.org/... The are others, so dig deep.



Comment by: Lantern Bearer At: 2006-11-18 12:28:33



Re: node: Donations to Democrats decreased under Abramoff

This is a statement of fact. It is well documented in various media sources and may be taken as a reasonable assumption as the Democrats were not yet in control. The pale between opportunity and complicity has been breached by the outcome of the Nov. 7, 2006 elections.



Comment by: Lantern Bearer At: 2006-11-18 12:37:19



Re: node: Donations by themselves are not illegal, nor necessari

I agree with this, with qualification.

The specifics of the quid pro quo do not have to be spelled out in the initial part of the transaction. If one takes the money, they are bought. They may not stay bought, because it is part of the grand game.

Comment by: Lantern Bearer At: 2006-11-18 12:45:53



Re: node: Abramoff central to 'K Street Project'

Yes. It has had a Republican face and agenda since the 1994 take over. It had an Abramoff face at least since the beginning of the Bush administration.

I must add that all in power are subject to the abuses that such a system brings to the table.

Comment by: Lantern Bearer At: 2006-11-18 13:22:39



Re: node: All convictions are Republicans

Please make a point here.

You have asserted some generalizations that are true for the recent past but this is a systemic problem, not just as a component of party.



Comment by: Lantern Bearer At: 2006-11-18 13:31:59



Re: comment: Re: node: Abramoff scandal is a Republican scandal

You're absolutely correct, in the general sense.

However, my intention with this argument, and the specificity therein was to refute Republican attempts to muddy the waters on this particular scandal by saying that Democrats received donations from Abramoff's clients and business associates.

Abramoff came to power with Grover "bipartisanship is another word for date rape" Norquist and Ralph Reed starting with their days in the College Republicans. The thought of helping Dems in any way is (or at least was) anathema.

Given your expertise, I would very much like for you to create an argument covering the general sense.

Comment by: Ulysses Berman At: 2006-11-18 14:53:13



Re: comment: Re: node: All convictions are Republicans

Again, this refers only to the Abramoff scandal, as distinct from the Wilkes/Wade scandal(s), or William Jefferson, or the veritable circus of scandals in Ohio.

Comment by: Ulysses Berman At: 2006-11-18 14:56:11



Re: node: Abramoff scandal is a Republican scandal

Latest news is that Abramoff has fingered Reid, a Democrat.

Comment by: drewliberty At: 2006-11-30 19:45:28



Re: comment: Re: node: Abramoff scandal is a Republican scandal

That rumor is played out under the

"Reports of contacts with "six to eight seriously corrupt Democratic senators""

node and it's children

http://honestargument.com/...

Comment by: Ulysses Berman At: 2006-11-30 22:51:14



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